Of all the aides to President Olusegun Obasanjo, there is none that has been as ever present in all the presidential functions within and outside the country as Professor Julius Ihonvbere. The erudite and outspoken scholar is Obasanjo’s Adviser on Programmes, Projects and Policy implementation. A member of the President’s Economic Management Team, Professor Ihonvbere, who retired from Ford Foundation, is one of the few advisers who attend the Federal Executive Council Meetings.
In this interview with UWAKWE ABUGU, the Edo State-born scholar, researcher and politician spoke on his burning desire to become governor of his state, the force that propels Obasanjo’s craving for foreign trips, as well as the third term agenda that is currently tearing the country apart and dismissed opponents of the constitution review as being victims of political laziness, among other issues. Excerpts:
The political terrain in Edo State has been bogged down by crisis in recent times, especially in view of the anxiety over which of the zones would take the governorship come 2007. You are a key player in the unfolding events. What is happening? Where is the wind blowing to?
I think the politics in Edo is very interesting. But my view is that there is nothing abnormal going on in Edo State. Politics is about negotiation, dialogue, about contestation, about competition. You have to win the soul and minds of the electorate. You have to package and sell yourself to the people.
Then, you have to look at the character of the parties, of the actors, tradition, history and opportunities that are available. In terms of where the wind is blowing to, I would say the structural and forceful wind is blowing towards Edo North. That does not mean it is a wind that does not have any impediment on its way. That is normal. In all fairness, Edo North is the only zone that has not produced an elected governor for the state. Yet, it is about 28% of the state. That is not a population to be set aside. It is not surprising that there has been a lot of competition to win footholds into Edo North through all kinds of gratifications to people –which is also normal in politics.
Thank God, Edo North has capable candidates this time. So, the issue will not be that they do not have candidates. I think the South has said, look, we’ve had two terms. We are willing to give it to some other zones. Some will say, either Central or North, but most of them will say North because the North has not had it. And I believe that as things become clearer, it will be obvious that in the interest of fairness, in the interest of justice, in the interest of equity in line with the PDP constitution, that the North should have a go at this particular opportunity this time around
But not minding the plausible argument on fairness, justice, equity, people will tell you that most of the time, politicians won’t consider those factors. You are believed to be Mr. President’s man and Anenih is seen to have his loyalist in the race. What are your chances?
I’m not just Mr. President’s man, I am actually everybody’s man. I’m very close to Chief Anenih. I respect him and I think he has some regard for me, for who I am. I am a self-made person. I was not made by any person except God, friends and community. I’m very close to the leaders in the South as I’m close to the leaders in the North. Alhaji Inu Umoru is my leader and I’m very close to him. So, I’m everybody’s man and I believe that when the time comes, all these people will come together and back me for the race.
For now, it is convenient for everybody to fight for his own turn. That is normal in politics. You don’t leave your own people and start fighting for some other people. But when the time comes for decision making, the issues will become (part of it will be) who has not had the opportunity? But most importantly, we look at credibility. We look at integrity. We look at honesty. We look at track record, ability to work hard; who can bring capital and technology to change Edo State.
We will look at the issue of who is the person who has the network nationally and internationally? And with all humility and due respect to all the other candidates, I do not think any of them has what I have in this particular campaign.
What is this edge you have over them?
I have worked hard and built networks over the years within the academic community, in civil society, in private business, in international organisations. I have been exposed. I have more than any other person in the race with all due respect. So, I believe that when the time comes, we will have the moral politics; we will have the realistic politics and we will also have the hard core political engagement and I’m ready. I’m ready in every respect. And, of course, even where I am today with the president will also count. I think that even if I’m blowing my trumpet myself, I have done fairly well in my job. And I’m proud I have been given the opportunity to serve the president, to serve Nigeria, to serve PDP. And I think I have done that fairly well, from reports I get even from those who are not supporters.
So, I think when the time comes, you know PDP is reforming itself. It is setting new rules. It is not the old PDP. It is realigning the issues, the regulation. And all of these are going to come into play in terms of looking at who are being put in power this time. Are we going to put in power people who will start opposing us, start embarrassing us, start embarrassing the party? Or are we going to put people who will take the programmes from the national level and programmes from the national level and take them to the grass roots, right to the people and make the party proud? And I believe I’m the person who can do that at this point.
Some people think that your credentials will work against you in view of the godfather syndrome in Edo State; that the godfathers might see you as being too independent-minded.
Well, there are two things to look at. One is to look at the state of Edo State today and say, how do we move the state away from where it is? Because like they say, when the shit hits the ceiling fan, it spreads on everybody. So, even they themselves, can they walk in the streets in the night? Can they feel safe? Do they want to enjoy their liberty, their retirement? They need somebody who can create jobs, give people comfort give people hope. You know, comfort; give people things to do to make them believe in the state and thereby maintain an atmosphere of security and peace. So, they must be concerned about that instead of building personal prisons where the walls are higher than the house. And that has not stopped armed robbers or criminals today.
The second is that people should also actually admire me from a humble background, a self-made person, that I have been able to create a position where I can express myself without fear or favour. And again, I have always respected leaders. I have always respected ideas. I was well brought up and believe in African culture and I always listen to people, seek advice. That was one of the qualities of working in an international foundation – The Ford Foundation. You are supposed to listen to people and then, enable people to do things on their own and not necessarily doing it for them.
So, the face of Nigerian and Edo politics is changing. I do not think anybody is going to say I am independent-minded. There are rules. There are regulations. There is a constitution. There are policies. There is a hierarchy within the party, in government and in the nation. You can’t run away from that, no matter how independent-minded you are. Can you ever be so independent-minded you won’t fear God? If you fear God, will you not fear elders? We know of traditional rulers, they should be respected. So, I think my qualification shows people that they will not spend time teaching me anything too much. They know I have been exposed; I’ve been observing; I’ve been researching. I’ve been studying. I’ve been practicalising what I know. In that context, I’m an asset to them because all they will now do is relax and just give me policy directions to run the government.
Looking at the crisis in the state, in view of the factions, new alliances and confusions therein, do you think the growing loss of confidence in the leadership by the electorate can be reversed?
We are talking. I talk with all the candidates. Before the shake-up in the federal cabinet, I was friendly with Ugbesia. We are still good friends. I also respect Osunbor. He is a complete gentleman. Oshiomhole, we have a common pedigree in activism and labour politics. I was in the Students Union movement. I was chairman of ASUU. I worked with top people in NLC both at the national and local levels. My Ph.D research was on Labour in the Oil Industry. So, I know that sector very well. And the deputy governor and I are from the same zone. We are friends. So, we talk. It means that amongst us, there will be no problem. At least at my own end, I don’t believe in violence. I don’t work violence. I don’t threaten people because I have no reason to do that.
So, that means there will be peace. Again, as far as I know, all the leaders, I talk to them. There is not one of them that I don’t talk to. I see Chief Anenih here everyday in Abuja. We greet. We talk. I pledge my loyalty. I see Dr. Ogbemudia. Even the governor comes here. I see all the others like Admiral Akhigbe, Chief Inu Umoru, Chief Uyigue and others. You name all of them. I relate with all the leaders in the North, South and Central. I relate to the youths; I relate to the women; to the professional bodies. So, put all of those together means there will be no problem. Once the leaders themselves have expressed an interest at seeing the state even climb to a higher height, that commitment will enable them at the end of the day to bury narrow interests; to bury personal interests and put the interest and future of the people above all other things. And I believe once they do that, I’m the candidate they will pick. This becomes, I’m the only person who I believe has that capacity to bring everybody together. I straddle all the sections and there will be no problem. I believe the people of Edo State will have nothing to worry about.
All of these things will be discussed by the leaders when they sit down. They will look at the candidates carefully. They will look at their credentials and what they can offer, where they are coming from, where they re going, who they are, whom they relate to, what they can offer the people. And they will make a decision and we will abide by it.
What do you have to offer Edo people, especially in view of the apparent lack of enough commitment by the leadership?
Let’s put it this way: I am very well educated. In spite of my humble upbringing, I went to some of the best schools in Nigeria and abroad. I have worked in the biggest foundation in the world, The Ford Foundation where I managed millions of dollars doing research in South Asia, in Africa, in Latin America, in the US and in Europe on the issues of governance, development, women, child rights, human rights, socio-economic development, economic relationship and so on. I have also managed very strategic businesses on my own and even worked in government programmes. I was chairman of the Bitumen Project and I know that in two years, I did what was not done in 40 years in that project.
I have extensive connections within the country and I will say more than any person in the race because my network cuts across the entire country. And when I talk of network, I’m not just talking about trade unionists, activists, students, women’s groups, professional bodies but with business men and political leaders. My current position (thanks be to God) has exposed me to world leaders. I have met leaders from almost all the big countries in the world – China, Japan, the UK, Netherlands, France – there’s none of them I’ve not met, including in Africa. I have been at meetings with them and the president and I’ve listened to ideas and I’ve learnt how problems are solved, how to attract businessmen. When I travel out with the president, we don’t go to parties; we don’t go to cocktails. We go to talk serious business – political, economic and social – and I’m always there. So, if you put all of these together, I would say that in Edo State, in 12 months they will see the meaning of good governance, positive, focused, transparent, honest leadership. They will see how you carry the people along. They will see us bring in investors. Some of them are already lining up, waiting for the election to take place for them to come to Edo if I’m elected governor of the state.
I did not learn about poverty from textbooks; I experienced poverty in life. I experienced hunger. I experienced unemployment, inability to pay school fees. I went through all these. So, I know precisely the needs of ordinary people, but the goal is to encourage those who already have to enjoy their wealth and invest while ordinary people can look up to them for mobilisation. I don’t really want to go into specifics, but I want to assure you that I have shown this programme to some of the leaders in Edo State for them to know we have a programme that has been prepared to transform the state completely – in infrastructure, security, employment, agriculture, education, health, reorganising the bureaucracy for efficiency and performance, you name it, all drawn from experience.
Let’s look at the national level. You travel with Mr. President very often if not all the time he travels abroad. Most people feel you people are merely gallivanting. How serious have these trips been?
When people don’t have information, the best thing they should do is to seek information rather than rush into conclusions which are usually wrong. I have never seen a more hardworking human being than Olusegun Obasanjo and I say that with all seriousness. Even for me at my age, to cope with him is a herculean task. And I want to say it is God that brought him here at this particular time in the history of Nigeria. I have traveled with him everywhere he has gone, and I mean it.
He doesn’t even want to go and be having meetings with people who are not going to talk about how to help Nigeria. And then, one day we can have 15 different meetings. When I say 15, I mean 15 serious, focused meetings about investment, about politics, stability, progress for Nigeria when we travel out. Now, any person who has seen the result of debt relief will not say we travel for nothing. 18 billion dollars, you don’t get that just by the side of the road.
Any person who says we are just gallivanting how would they explain the fact that there has been more investment in Nigeria since this Obasanjo’s time than since 1960 till now put together? How will they explain the successes in agriculture? How will they explain the fact that your green passport no longer means disgrace internationally? How will they explain that at a point in time, this president of Nigeria was not only a chairman of AU but chairman of G.77, was chairperson of the Commonwealth at the same time, was chairman of Heads of State and Governments Implementation Committee of NEPAD, was chairman of African Peer Review Mechanism (A.P.R.M)? They should look into Africa; they should look into Nigeria and see positive leadership, economic progress, improvement in infrastructure, improvement in services, more confidence in Nigeria, efficiency in the bureaucracy, expanding technological base and a budding financial sector. These do not just come by people who are gallivanting and playing and partying around.
I have traveled to Europe with Mr. President and come back the same day. That is because we leave here 2 a.m, arrive at 7 a.m, and go straight to the meeting, finish the meeting, get into the aircraft back straight to Nigeria. We don’t even book into hotels. We’ve done than more than 10 times. How many presidents in the world would do that? But that is because we didn’t go there to be sleeping in hotels. We sleep in the aircraft when we are coming back and we are happy to make that sacrifice for Nigeria.
So, I want to say that Nigeria is experiencing a boom now. Look at the investment in the oil sector, the investment in the LNG, the ones in independent power projects in the oil sector, the gas projects that are going on now. Are those the results of people who just sat down or went abroad and attend parties and people decided to bring their money here? No, it is because they go there to talk business. Look at Peugeot and Vokswagen and the kind of concession they gave to Nigeria. Look at the airline – Virgin Atlantic. The proprietor did not come here to bring in Virgin Nigeria because we met him in a party. There are quite a lot of others.
The issue of third term agenda is daily haunting this country and the citizens. Can you once again react to this topical issue?
There is nothing like third term agenda. You know, the issue of third term is a nightmare and the imagination of people who are so scared to compete because they see new rules on the terrain. They see Nigerians asking new questions. They see new institutions like ICPC and EFCC asking questions and looking into the records of people and see if they stand the test of simple morality to rule and govern Nigeria. They feel that some people have set a tone that unless you rubbish them, there is no way you can go on.
Now, the amendment of the constitution is not the business of the executive. It is not the business of Obasanjo. So, he has no business in this business. He has said that he respects the constitution. That his chickens are missing him. That he will retire to his farm and that he has so many other things to do. But the National Assembly has the exclusive right to amend the constitution and they are proceeding with that. If they go and amend the area of tenure to make it open even for members of the House and the executive, it is then left for the incumbent to decide whether he wants to take advantage of that or not. And he has a right to do that. If he so decides, he will have to contend with the rules of the party because he will not just decide and the party will say, alright, take it. There are other people who say they are in the race. He will also have to contend with these people.
Instead of people to go and organise themselves, join political parties, register and make sure the person they don’t want to continue doesn’t continue. They are busy on TV and newspapers spreading stories about third term. That is political laziness.
But what of the rumour that the members of the National Assembly are being bribed to effect that amendment to enable the president to get a third term?
Now, there are two issues in that. First, people from the constituencies of such legislators know what to do because if you are bribed, you are not delivering the goods and services to the people. So, their people should take care of them. But more importantly, I have not seen any bribe. I have not given any and I don’t know of any legislator who has received a bribe. Now, imagine, how much are you going to use to bribe the number of legislators we have for them to go against what they are going to do?
If you look at it carefully, most of those who have been complaining of tooth-aching and belly-aching are the failed politicians; people who have been marginalised from access to free hand at national resources. Those who have not been given the kind of political appointments they want or those who have been deprived of them. Many of them are going around and complaining and complaining. That is not the answer. The answer, as far I’m concerned, is that the National Assembly has the right to amend whatever they believe is not there in the constitution.
When I was at Ford Foundation, I brought hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars to Nigeria to work on what is the problem with the 1999 Constitution. Every section of it was totally problematic. I don’t even know how they managed to work with it till now. I set up many NGOs in the country and supported many others, so that they would debate the amendment of the constitution. They collated over 250 things that are wrong with the constitution. Now the thing is to be amended, people are crying. What is the problem with us in this country?
The Niger Delta situation at present is very precarious. How is Mr. President taking it?
The president is very concerned. You know he lived and fought in that area during the civil war and he knows what the Niger Delta wants. He has bent over backwards to try to reach some accommodation. He has talked to the governors, for some of them who were not doing it before to invest in socio-economic development. He has supported the NDDC more than ever before. He has urged the oil companies to pay their own contributions to NDDC so they will have the resources to carry out development project. He has approved the master plan for the development of the Niger Delta which was approved by both the council of states and the Federal Executives Council.
And when the second hostage taking took place again, he cancelled his trip to Cross River State so as to sit down and look at the issues, and he set up two committees. One would look at the problem of hostages and the other on how to look at and revisit the problem of socio-economic development involving local and state governments, private sector, civil society, communities and the NDDC which is the link organisation. He is seeking ways to end violence in the Niger Delta. You know there is no way all the militia groups in the Niger Delta can withstand the Nigerian Army, but that is not the option the president is settling for. The option is to say, let us build dialogue; let us build peace; find out what these young men want. Let some of them make themselves available for training. Some of them don’t want to work. Some are just hiding under Niger Delta issues to carry out criminal acts. So, this act of kidnapping doesn’t help anybody.
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